Head to head
Crick and Koch’s NCC vs Orch OR
Crick and Koch’s Neural Correlates of Consciousness (NCC) and Penrose-Hameroff’s Orchestrated Objective Reduction, compared field by field from their entries in the Atlas.
At a glance
- Crick and Koch’s NCC belongs to the Materialism family in Kuhn's Landscape of Consciousness, Orch OR to Quantum & Dimensions.
- Both treat consciousness as emergent.
- On AI consciousness, Crick and Koch’s NCC says “Yes” and Orch OR says “No”.
- On life after death, Crick and Koch’s NCC says “No” and Orch OR says “Possible”.
- On mind uploading, Crick and Koch’s NCC says “Yes” and Orch OR says “Conditional”.
- On meaning and purpose, Crick and Koch’s NCC says “Humanistic only” and Orch OR says “Cosmic/Ultimate”.
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Quantum & Dimensions
Penrose-Hameroff’s Orchestrated Objective Reduction
Roger Penrose, Stuart Hameroff
The claim
In brief
Crick and Koch’s NCCThis theory proposes a scientific agenda to identify the Neural Correlate of Consciousness (NCC), defined as the minimum activities in the brain that are jointly sufficient and necessary for any specific conscious perception or subjective experience. It asserts that consciousness is entirely physical and can be fully reduced to these specific brain activities.
Orch ORThis theory posits that consciousness arises from non-computational, gravitation-mediated objective reduction (OR) of quantum superpositions occurring within the protein structures (microtubules) inside brain neurons. This process, termed Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch OR), bridges the gap between quantum mechanics and classical reality to produce phenomenal experience.
What consciousness is
Crick and Koch’s NCCConsciousness (phenomenal consciousness/qualia) is identified as the Neural Correlate of Consciousness (NCC), the precise minimum pattern of neural activity in the brain necessary and sufficient for subjective experience.
Orch ORConsciousness is identified as a non-computational physical process—the specific orchestration of gravitation-mediated objective reduction of quantum states linked to the fine-scale structure of spacetime geometry. Proto-conscious moments are fundamental and ubiquitous in the universe.
Big questions
Can AI be conscious?Differ
Crick and Koch’s NCCYesIf consciousness is entirely reducible to physical organizational patterns (NCC), then non-biological systems capable of replicating those precise patterns should also become conscious, barring technological constraints.
Orch ORNoConsciousness is fundamentally non-computational and relies on specific biological quantum processes (Orch OR in microtubules); digital simulation cannot replicate true sentience.
Crick and Koch’s NCCNoAs a Materialist theory, consciousness is wholly dependent on the physical brain; cessation of brain function entails the end of consciousness.
Orch ORPossibleAs a non-local quantum process in spacetime geometry, consciousness provides a potentially plausible mechanism for phenomena like near-death experiences, the afterlife, and reincarnation.
Crick and Koch’s NCCYesIf the NCC states can be perfectly measured and replicated in a digital or artificial medium (mind uploading), the resulting system would be functionally and phenomenally identical, achieving virtual immortality in principle.
Orch ORConditionalMind uploading requires recreating consciousness in an artificial medium (e.g., carbon nanotubes) that possesses the necessary quantum physical properties to sustain and orchestrate objective reduction events.
Crick and Koch’s NCCHumanistic onlyConsistent with Materialism, consciousness is a biological product of evolution and physics, conferring no ultimate cosmic meaning or teleology beyond that which humans create for themselves.
Orch ORCosmic/UltimateProto-conscious moments are fundamental and ubiquitous, linking consciousness to the fine-scale structure of reality, suggesting inherent cosmic relevance and possibly enabling evolution itself.
Nature of mind
Ontology
Crick and Koch’s NCCReductive Physicalism/Materialism. The NCC approach is considered macroscopic materialism.
Orch ORQuantum Theory (Non-computational Physicalism / Proto-panpsychism)
Mind and body
Crick and Koch’s NCCIdentity Theory. Mental states are wholly identical to and fully explained by the physical NCC states.
Orch ORConsciousness is non-computational physics. The brain's microtubules act as a mechanism to orchestrate proto-conscious quantum activity into coherent, rich conscious experiences, requiring a physics beyond current understanding.
Fundamental or emergent
Crick and Koch’s NCCEmergent
Orch OREmergent/Primitive (Hybrid)
Qualia
Crick and Koch’s NCCQualia (the qualitative feel of experience) are identified with the minimum neural activities (NCC) that are jointly sufficient for specific conscious perception, although the mechanism for this identity remains the central 'hard problem' challenge.
Orch ORRich conscious experience (qualia) arises when orchestrated objective reduction occurs in neuronal microtubules, connecting the quantum information processing to the fundamental structure of spacetime geometry.
How it works
Mechanism
Crick and Koch’s NCCThe search for and definition of the Neural Correlate of Consciousness (NCC): the specific minimum neural activities necessary and sufficient for subjective experience.
Orch OROrchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch OR), where non-computational, instantaneous quantum state collapse is leveraged by coherent quantum activity sustained within microtubule lattices.
Where it is
Crick and Koch’s NCCLocalized in specific brain areas. Early candidates included the claustrum (as a 'conductor' coordinating percepts); later candidates focused on the posterior cerebral cortex (temporo-parietal-occipital hot zone).
Orch ORLocalized within neuronal microtubules, particularly in the brain, but fundamentally drawing upon ubiquitous proto-conscious properties throughout the universe.
What it does
Crick and Koch’s NCCConsciousness is directly caused by, and is identical to, the NCC activity. NCC mechanisms (spikes, flows, circuits) are seen as constitutive of phenomenal consciousness.
Orch ORConsciousness provides real-time conscious causal action through non-computable objective reduction events, potentially linked to the fundamental mechanisms of free will and choice.
Evidence and criticism
Testability
Crick and Koch’s NCCEmpirically testable. The search for the NCC is defined as a scientific program seeking testable biological bases for consciousness.
Orch ORTheoretically testable; versions involving collapse dynamics can, in principle, be tested with quantum computers, though current tests are rudimentary.
Tests so far
Crick and Koch’s NCCIdentifying specific clusters of neurons or brain regions (like the claustrum or posterior cortex) that are active during conscious experience.,Measuring electrophysiological activity (e.g., action potentials and neural circuits).
Orch ORStudies showing that general anesthetics, psychedelics, and antidepressants interact with microtubules.,Experiments aimed at testing quantum coherence maintenance in biological systems (e.g., tubulin studies).,Testing theoretical versions by combining IIT and collapse dynamics.
Criticisms
Crick and Koch’s NCCThe primary tension is the 'explanatory gap': identifying a correlation (NCC) does not explain the identity statement of how physical activity (spikes/chemicals) literally generates phenomenal feel (qualia). The failure to identify a 'clear' NCC after decades of research is a practical limitation.
Orch ORThe main tension is the challenge of maintaining quantum coherence for biological timescales in the hot, wet environment of the brain (environmental decoherence). The theory also requires non-existent physics (quantum gravity).
Sources
Key sources
Crick and Koch’s NCC
- Towards a neurobiological theory of consciousness, F. Crick and C. Koch (1990)
- What is the function of the claustrum?, F. Crick and C. Koch (2005)
- The Quest for Consciousness: a Neurobiological Approach, C. Koch (2004)
Orch OR
- Shadows of the Mind: A Search for the Missing Science of Consciousness, Roger Penrose (1996)
- Conscious., Microtub. ‘Orch OR’, Stuart Hameroff (2014)
- Consciousness & new physics, Roger Penrose (2023)